speacialty grain steep/partial mash?

[beerman]

It's been a while since I home brewed. The last beer was an Irish stout, extract and some specialty grains, about 3 year ago. Before that stout it was probably about a 8-10 year gap.

Just got some supplies from G&G and plan on trying a kolsch and an alt.
They are extract recipes with some grains. I'll be using muslin bags/ hop sock and a kitchen colander to "steep/mash" and "simulate sparge"

The kolsch grains are 8oz. wheat malt, 8oz. rye malt, and 8oz. vienna malt. 1 & 1/2lbs. total. Was going to do a step infusion mash. I'm using "The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing" book by Charles Papazain as a guide. Similar to the general instructions on G&G all grain recipes, except they specify a protein rest (122 F) and a temp rest step.
- Is step infusion a good plan? (since these are base, and not fully modified malts?)?

The alt has 16oz. crystal malts, 8oz. chocolate malt, 5oz. black patent, and 3oz. roasted barley. 2lbs. total.
- These malts require only a single temp. steep (150-160 F)? (since these are fully modified malts?)

I'm using white labs liquid kolsch yeast. My plan here was to primary ferment the kolsch 1st. Then when transferring to the secondary putting the alt right on the yeast sediment left in the primary from the 1st kolsch. The idea was to get 2 easy uses from the yeast and avoid some cleaning and sanitizing.
-Any thoughts on this idea?

[grapeadmin]

Those malts are fully modified. It is difficult these days to find malts that are not fully modified regardless of whether they are base or specialty malts.

You don't need a protein rest for two reasons. 1) the quantity of malt you are steeping is not significant enough to cause haze problems 2) the malts are fully modified.

I have known some brewers to rack a new brew right on to a yeast cake from a previous batch. I think it is ok but don't let the second batch sit in the primary longer than is necessary. Once the airlock is only bubbling 1x per minute, rack the beer off the sediment into a secondary. The risk is picking up off flavors from dead and dying yeast cells (yeast autolysis).

thanks
john

[beerman]

Thanks for the reply, I guess I"ll reveal my top secret recipes...that are really 1st try's


my kolsch
(2) 3.3 lb. cans Briess pilsner lme
8 oz. Durst wheat malt
8 oz. Briess rye malt
8 oz. Dust Vienna malt
(1.5 lbs. grain total)
7.5 HBU's of Spalt hop pellets (boiling/bittering)

The spalt pellets I have are 5% average alpha acid, so I'm using 1.5 oz. to get the 7.5 HBU's. Boiling these for 1hr. after the foam up. Thought this might be the "hot break" if I remeber correctly?

-Should I just steep my crushed grains 150 - 160 F. in 3 gallons for 30 min. as my past practice usually was (the same as the G&G intermediate brewing instructions with an extra 10 min.), or use the G&G all grain instructions with the strike water volume/temps adjusted for my small 1.5 lbs. of grain?
- In the past I used a portion of water at 170 F (maybe about 3-4 qts. or 1 gal.) to slowly pour over muslin bags of grain to get all the good stuff out, sort of a "simulated sparge", is this o.k.?

my alt (more a alt, schwarzbier, octoberfest hybrid)
(1) 3.3 lb. can Briess Munich lme
(1) 3.3 lb. can Briess amber lme
8 oz. Weyerman cara red crystal
8 oz. Durst dark crystal
8 oz. Weyermann carafa II chocolate malt
5 oz. Briess black patent
3 oz. Briess roasted barley (un-malted I think)
(2 lbs. grain total)
10 HBU's of boiling/bittering hops
(Traditional, Tettnang, and Spalt pellets combo)
1/2 oz. (1/4 tettnang, 1/4 spalt) for flavor and aroma close to end of boil.

Was gonna try maybe at 7, then 3 min. and then last :30 sec. Thinking since the ice bath cool down takes a while, rather than use a more normal addition times. The "simulated sparge" and tweaking of hop pellet times are small things that make me feel like I'm making a more custom/personal brew and hopefully getting the most from these specific ingredients.

-The same question for this grain mix, should I steep or use G&G all grain instructions with the strike water temps./volumes etc. adjusted for my small grain weight?

[beerman]

In reference to the yeast cake of previous batch.

-I would have thought not racking but a vigorous pour into bucket primary to aerate as best I can w/o other gear?

-If it's better (only trying to cut down on cleaning/sanitizing ) to make say a 2-3 size portion of yeast starter and use 1/2 of it for the 1st batch, and saving the other 1/2 for the 2nd batch?
I have some M&F extra-light dme and a 1/2 gal. jug, stopper, airlock.

Crafting the recipe specifics has been fun ... as I remember the aromas on brew day are great. Having some selected quality brews with the friend who wants to try home brewing and motivated me to do a few batches will taste extra good with all those aromas.

[grapeadmin]

When steeping grains, I like to steep with no more than one gallon of water per pound of grain. This insures that you won't be steeping the grain in a high pH water and extracting tannins. I would just do the grain steeping following the typical grape and granary extract process. There is no need to follow the all-grain process with the amount of grain that you have.

Once the grain steeping is done, you can add more water to the kettle. Depending on your kettle size, I like to boil 3-4 gallons of water with my ingredients. A larger boil means less carmelization of the wort and less darking of the wort color.

Sparging can be ok but if the water is over 170 deg F and if it has a pH over 7.0 it can lead to leaching tannins from the grains imparting a drying taste. I don't do it with my extract batches.

john

[grapeadmin]

The danger of so much yeast is flavors of dead and dying yeast. Just don't let it sit longer in the primary than need be. Using 1/2 cup of sediment from a previous batch would be more desirable and less risky. Once that second batch has been repitched, just save some of the sediment from that batch (from the primary) to pitch into the third batch.

Glad to hear you are having a good time with it.

thanks!
john

[beerman]

Water
My water in soft and pretty neutral. I got the local water report when I used to home brew...somewhere. Back then the water had no chlorine added they were exempt or something because of quality, levels etc. Currenty they do add a small amount of chlorine. For everyday drinking water we use a britta pitcher sytle water filter.

-The stout I did 3 year ago I used all bitta filtered water. Is this a good idea?


Steep
I'll have to adjust the amount of steep water, as suggested to match the grain weight, 1 gal./lb. If this yields crushed grain steep with better PH and not extracting undesirable tannins, then I'm for this practice.

-I have some water crystals, should these be added to steep water or even the sparge water for PH purposes, lowering? (Don't think hard water is part of these styles)


Sparge
The sparge water was in the past was always slightly below 170 F because using a pot with 170 water then put into a pyrex measuring cup for the slow pour/simulated sparge decreases waters temp. a bit. My hope here was only to get the most out of my small grain bill.

-Does this lower temp. water present a problem?
-If this practice is more of a potential risk for tannins, in reference to PH over 7.0 water, then I'll ajust this as well?


Boil
My boil full water volume practice in the past was 3 gal. in my 4 gal. SS brewpot. To avoid carmelization and darkening (and something about better hop utilization or another benefit?) So I'm good here.


Yeast
I'm gonna do the simple 1/2 cup of primary sediment, only sanitizing my pyrex measuring cup is no big step saver. Since it's more desirable and less risky, why not.

-Do I need to make a starter fo white labs, Im always wondering the risk vs. benefit of this step with liquid yeast volumes. Worth the extra cleaning, sanitizing and wait time?


In my planned 2 batch back to back process (only have 1 primary, 1 secondary ,and 1 bottling bucket)
kolsch 1 week primary.
alt into same primary and secondary transfer kolsch.
Kolsch after 1 week secondary bottle, and transfer alt to same secondary for my normal at least 2 weeks

-Should I clean and sanitize the reused primary bucket and secondary before each new transfer?

[grapeadmin]

Water- I believe using the britta filtered water is a good idea. Even a very small amount of chlorine can ruin a batch.

Steep- If the water has 50 ppm of calcium or more, you don't need to add any water salts to the steep or sparge water. If it has less than 50, it would not hurt to add a bit of gypsum or calcium chloride.

Sparge- The small amount of sparge water you are using (relative to the amount used in an all grain batch) should not have a major effect. Just watch the water temp and make sure it is below 170 deg f. and you should not have any problem.

Boil- Should be good here. Boiling more is better than boiling less.

Yeast- If the white labs is less than 1 month old and you are making an ale, you should be ok without making a starter. I prefer the Wyeast as it has a built in starter so less hassle and potential risk.

I always sanitize my equipment between batches regardless of whether they are back to back or not. It probably is not necessary but better to be too sanitary than not sanitary enough.

john

[beerman]

Thanks for all your help, (my questions are getting like a book)

I started the kolsch and the amount of time was kinda long.

To boil 3 gal. water volume, add malt extract off heat, then bring this "wort" to a boil is very time consuming on a standard stove top. (I was also using a trivet to try to minimize the carmelization/darkening, as my past extract light/golden batches seemed to always come out more amberish in color even with my 3 gal. boil.)

I also have a thermometer that has a small portion of the red measurement liquid/material stuck in a separated raised above the rest position that throws temp. reading off by about 7-8 F. This caused me to have the temp of my wheat, rye, vienna steep to be at 180 F for 3-5 min. upon which I immediately added the other filtered water (I was beginning to warm in another pot) to quickly get the temp in the proper 150-160F range ... for all my questions and intentions on getting all the techniques correct to optimize things.

[beerman]

gave a small test 12oz. bottle of this a try on Thanks Giving.
Like the nice light color, good co2, ... but there is a extra flavor that I wasn't expecting from this yeast choice(white labs, Kolsch), kind of a wheat beer flavor profile. Maybe clove or anise-like, I'm not certain yet.

-This can't be from the grains and short high temp mistake?

[grapeadmin]

I think the short time at 180 would most likely lead to a dry tannic flavor noticable on the tongue, not in the aroma or flavor so I doubt that would be the cause. Clove etc... would be more phenolic and could be do to a warm fermentation temp, mutated yeast or possible contamination. If it were me, I would just let the beer age for a few more weeks and see if it improves.

john

[beerman]

The taste is clove, not strong but present. I don't think it's contaminated (no other off flavors, bad smell etc.) Room temp. was around 68-70 F.

-Is this from the white labs kolsch yeast, is this a component of this style yeast? Sort of like a wheat beer taste profile? (I don't really like wheat beers because of these type flavors, and would have used another style yeast if I knew these flavors were in the profile)

I only tried kolsch beer once. The two brands were Gaffel an Reissdorf. I think I liked the reissdorf with the red label. Maybe most kolsch beers have a slight clove taste from the yeast stains and the reissdorf, that I liked, was the exception?

[grapeadmin]

I always thought of kolsch as more dry and maybe winey but clean, and not clove like. Commercial Kolsch is fermented cool and then stored cold (lagered) which would likely clean up any warmer fermentation characteristics. Maybe through some bottles in the fridge for a month and see if it improves.

Here is the info from White labs which states that it can and does produce sulfur during fermentation and likely when the beer is young. That should dissipate with aging.

WLP029 German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast
From a small brewpub in Cologne, Germany, this yeast works great in Kölsch and Alt style beers. Good for light beers like blond and honey. Accentuates hop flavors, similar to WLP001. The slight sulfur produced during fermentation will disappear with age and leave a super clean, lager like ale.
Attenuation: 72-78%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-69°F
Does not ferment well less than 62°F, unless during active fermentation.
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

john

[beerman]

Since the carbonation levels are o.k.
I'm gonna put a bunch of bottles in the fridge and cool age "lager" for a while to see the results. Hopefully this is a warmer ferment characteristic (It was only ever maybe 70 F) and will decrease with the cool storage.

-Is it possible? (My old plastic bucket fermenter with some small scratches in the sides, even though I thoroughly washed, rinsed, sanitized, and rinsed) Could this be a contamination source issue?

-A related question...I understand "dry" and I think "winey" would also be a dryish, maybe alcohol presence (some fruit tones?). Is that what you think winey refers to?

The description is what I was hoping for. Clean and lager like, dry and winey all sound good. I have the dark beer 2nd batch (used the same yeast) in a secondary currently (4 weeks now) waiting to be bottled soon. I hope this clove like flavor is not accentuated in this dark beer, but diminished if there at all.

[grapeadmin]

Contamination is a possibility but not likely. I could not say without tasting the beer. Yes, when I think winey, I think dry with some alcoholic warmth.

thanks
john